Did you know that Laneway Festival's 2025 lineup had the smallest lineup ever, aside from the festival's first-ever Melbourne-only year, when it was held in an actual laneway?
And did you know that of that lineup, the festival's lineup contained only 30% Australian acts? A total of 6 artists were present at the Sydney leg, and all of them had finished playing by 3pm. Sydney artist DEVAURA (she's awesome btw) played at 11:30am!
Here are the last 5 years of lineups compared:
What the heck is going on?
While trying to figure this out, I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Eva Sikes-Gerogiannis who put together a really cool package on the changing flavour of festivals in Australia on FBi Radio's Backchat program. Go take a listen!
With Eva's permission, I've transcribed the full interview. If you prefer audio, you can listen to the full thing on my Soundcloud.
* * *
ESG: Joe Hardy, thank you for joining me. You wrote a great article about triple j's Hottest 100 representing the erosion of local culture. Could you just give us a rundown of what you mean by that and why you think interest in Australian music and culture seems to be sort of waning amongst young people?
JH: Yeah, the Hottest 100 this year was really interesting and pretty much immediately spawned a lot of interesting interpretations and analysis. Every year that the Hottest 100 rolls around, I get really interested in what it says about culture at the moment, because I kind of view the Hottest 100 as a bit of a litmus test on the population at large - it's less about Triple J listeners and more about people that are aware of the Hottest 100 as an institution, which I would say is a far greater number of people than actually listen to Triple J these days.
So, did some analysis on the [countdown]. People were already saying lowest number of Australian songs since 1996. The more I dug into it, I realised that actually the headline figure was the lowest number of Australian artists ever, which was 18. By comparison in 1996 the countdown had 24 artists. So a lower number of artists in the poll, the lowest ever - in 2014 I think they had 60 Australian songs. So we're talking a dramatic drop in the saturation of [local music].
But the more that I dug into it, the more that I was kind of going, "hang on a minute: I feel like I've been seeing these names around for a long time" [but kind of doubted myself because] maybe it's just the distortion of, you know, pandemic era and all those sorts of things. What even is time anymore? And then I realised that the average tenure of the bands that were represented in the Hottest 100 was actually over 10 years.
So these bands on average had been around for over 10 years, and there wasn't a single act in the Hottest 100 that had been around for less than 5. And so we're talking about pretty mature Australian acts. They're on, you know, mature album cycles, tours, those sorts of things. They've got good representation.
You see a high amount of major labels or at the very least music industry representation rather than the story that Triple J would like to tell, which is that they're pulling, you know, a lot of underground stuff and promoting it and making household names out of local talent.
So things have changed a lot. It's been a really big shift for the Hottest 100 and I just wanted to get some thoughts out to sort of go, what does this mean and why has it happened?
ESG: Yeah, right. So because Triple J is traditionally one of the radio stations and those sort of arbiters of culture that tend to champion Australian music more. So do you think maybe that effect, like you were saying, it's mostly established Australian acts who have more maybe financial backing and more like investment in them... do you think that the fact that Triple J as a cultural institution is championing them over smaller acts means that interest in smaller acts is eroding in general?
I think that the amount of firepower financially that is behind acts will dramatically change their chances of success, especially today. Look, it is a pay to play ecosystem, you know, as much as streaming can be a kingmaker and it can make careers out of people that go from nothing to having a viral track overnight.
The way that algorithmic platforms work is still financially incentivised, and it can be that you change your art to fit better with the platforms, or it can be that you throw spend behind the work. So major labels, for example, will be throwing lots of money towards Meta to promote artists, and they'll be throwing lots of money into all sorts of platforms to increase their online presence, which gives them a better chance of getting a good run.
So we are seeing a real change in the dynamics of how careers are made, and a really tragic part of this story is that Triple J have so dramatically lost their influence. And we see that in the differences between what Triple J's top 50 played artists were for last year as compared to the Hottest 100.
So, Sycco was the number two most played artist on Triple J last year, did not place in the hottest 100. The Buoys, local heroes, amazing, tour all the time, great album, 10th most played artists on Triple J last year. Did not place in the top 200. That's unheard of. Triple J always had a significant influence on the cultural ear. Richard Kingsmill was a kingmaker. People would really be afraid of whether he'd want to playlist an artist or not, and that could define a career for that cycle. So it's a really interesting change that's gone on. And I think we're dealing with the effects of that in real time.
Triple J is obviously only one point of influence amongst many, but they're all sort of having this conversation in question at the moment.
ESG: Yeah. That's a really interesting perspective because I feel like there's these conversations about maybe the Americanisation of culture or that sort of thing is a real tendency to sort of like wag the fingers at young people and say, "Oh, you don't know what's good for you. You're not supporting Australian music." So do you think, do you agree with that at all? That it is a cultural shift amongst young people, or is it most obviously they're quite interconnected, but do you think that maybe the financial side of it is more influential?
JH: I'm fortunate to have a background working in tech, so a lot of my time has been thinking about how to scale systems for potentially unlimited amounts of growth, which works very neatly in line with how companies think, where more and more and more they want to be able to scale their organisations to for unlimited growth, global growth. Unlimited scale is such a strange concept because of course there's limits to scale, but nonetheless, I digress.
So studying those sorts of dynamics, the thing with distribution in the online sphere is that now everyone, like if we look at musicians, for example, everyone is now distributing their content globally.
So the second you enter the game as a sub 1000 stream artist, you're in a playing field where you're really hoping that your game of chance with the algorithm is going to get your stuff distributed to globally is because that's the only way you can actually make a viable career is if you have your millions of streams and begin to get the flywheel working like that.
That's how it works now. We're all attempting to globally distribute our content and there are less and less threads that actually tell stories about local scenes, giving them an identity and helping them to hang together and have commonalities with other bands and all of those things.
Local bands are less and less and less looking at their peers that are immediately around them and playing shows with them, they're looking at the competition over in LA or over in Europe or those sorts of things. So we have a globalisation of the sounds that are being created and less and less that you can go, That sounds like it was made in Sydney or that sounds like it was made in Melbourne or that sounds like it was made in LA. Those have always been really strong sonic signatures that have then been exported and influenced people all over the world. But you still have those local centres of geography.
ESG: Absolutely. Yeah. So on that note, there's been, I'm sort of like tentatively calling it the "Coachellafication of Laneway". So why do you think that culture and those conversations surrounding Laneway seem to be veering towards more of that like Coachellified Americanized model or is it? Do you think that's specifically a Laneway thing or is it sort of translating to Aussie festival culture in general?
JH: Yeah, there are a number of contributing factors, but yes, I think ultimately this is a pretty universal trend. And I think I should say as well in amongst all of this, I genuinely think the music industry is really terrified right now. They are in this sort of perilous life and death situation where they're trying to hang on to audiences and give the people what they want so that they can remain in the game.
It is really that stark, and, you know, looking at cancellations like Splendour in the Grass, Groovin the Moo, Spilt Milk, you know, so on and so forth: it's a real threat. Why are they becoming more and more Americanized? Well, it's where the audiences are listening. You know, in the same way that the Hottest 100 told a story that people were listening to TikTok - you know, it really does look like a streaming chart.
You know, it looks like a Spotify most played artists chart that is now playing in two lineups. And I've heard industry panels from the music industry where people say they just trawl Reddit and see, you know, what is getting the most noise to figure out what their next booking should be. More and more, the music industry is just looking at dashboards, you know: plays, dollars, tickets sold, they're looking at global trends and they're - with the globalisation of all of these trends - they're just hoping that they'll translate into the local market.
I think that's a disaster because we used to have conviction- and tastemaker-led decisions being made, the bookers of the Big Day Out, the original Laneway Festival, you know, all of these things had this sense of taking a gamble on, you know, stuff that they thought was really cool and a degree of trust went with the curator of that of that event, whatever was happening, and people would go along for the ride.
The Big Day Out built its career on these incredible stories of, you know, bands like Nirvana playing the Hordern Pavilion. You know, 5,000 people and no one knew who they were. We're in a very different landscape now. The artists need to be known quantities and they need to have the runs on the board, and it's mostly shown through streaming that shows that there'll be an audience there. But in turn, it means that the ears of the audiences are less and less open minded as well. So at festivals, you're seeing people just kind of flocking to the artist or artists that they came there for. It's not a discovery situation. You know, they've checked off what they want to see.
There are really different dynamics in festivals now compared to, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. And I think it's really interesting to go, what are the causes of that? And, you know, what is derived from social media? What is a change in the way that conversations about culture happen locally, and how do we, you know, maybe make people open minded to new sounds and new artists all over again?
ESG: Yeah, absolutely. Actually on that point of what you were saying about booking who you know is going to bring in an audience: there's the Charli XCX of it all, obviously, coming off the Brat Summer and everything. It's sort of a big draw for a lot of people going to Laneway this year, the most cynical part of myself is sort of thinking that's why Laneway wasn't another festival that was cancelled this year.
JH: Oh, and I will say when the lineup dropped, I went: "you did it. You got this one right."
You know, I think I really saw a sense of resistance in the recent Splendour lineups. I think they really wanted to keep some of the old vibes. They wanted to hang on to that curatorial thing, even though they went for some really big gambles like Kylie Minogue and those sorts of [acts]. The audiences weren't having it because it wasn't in their lane.
Whereas I think to do something like Charli XCX, you know, is a real zeitgeisty kind of thing. Sometimes Laneway have even been ahead of the curve and then the festival has happened right as it's peaking. It must be incredibly exciting for them to sort of pull off something like that. But for Charli, we're obviously on the other side of the peak of that zeitgeist.
But still, it's got enough holding power that, you know, everyone's been watching the tour happening all over the world. And they want their little moment of it. You know, they want to film the Apple dance and upload it to TikTok and all of that kind of thing. Whatever. But yeah, I think Charli was the master stroke and they probably did that through deep relationships with Charli's team and all that kind of thing.
But generally, I think they just went "we've got to go for broke on, you know, nailing the zeitgeist. Otherwise we might not be around next year." And I think they made a smart business decision - but I think the lineup is a tragedy for Australian underground talent and also for turning people onto new stuff, which is what Laneway used to excel in.
Laneway was a little bit like, it felt like an offshoot of Pitchfork back in the day, but it's still had a lot of stuff that it was pulling out of the ecosystem all over the world. But it did give a good spotlight on Australian music as well.
ESG: Yeah, absolutely. I went to Laneway in 2019 and even as recently as then it felt much more local and it felt a lot more like it was about going and seeing what you could find. And the headliners were, I think the headliners were Gang Of Youths that year and there was just more Australian artists in general. So it's really been a rapid, rapid shift.
JH: The pandemic contributed hugely to that. The fact that we were mainlining algorithmic feeds for two whole years inside bored out of our faces I think really just allowed the algorithms to really do their work in becoming the dominant and preeminent way that we consume content. And by the way, that's how these companies refer to music and culture: they call it "content".
More and more, you're just seeing these relatively cynical decisions being made [based on] "performance": in a very top line metrics kind of way. It's not about depth of engagement. It's not what the artist is trying to say. It's not what they actually want to tell a story about their culture, so much.
So much music that performs well on social media is still great music. I'm not shitcanning it on its own terms, but the first principles that inform what is making music perform no longer has those things maybe as being more important than the performance of that stuff. And I think that's important.
There are a few things around the philosophy of how music companies are working these days, though, that I think really need to be explored some more. And one of the things that we don't have a huge amount of transparency on is company ownership: a lot of music companies are being bought by international companies.
For example, Laneway itself is owned by TEG, which was a merger between TEG Dainty and Ticketek. And TEG itself is owned by Silver Lake, which is a private equity company headquartered out of the States. I was looking at their mission statement. I think it's helpful to read these sorts of things to understand the way that money decisions are being made for a line item like Laneway, which is many, many layers down the rung, you know, it's buried [within] a bunch of fully owned and partially owned companies. Here's their mission statement:
"Silver Lake partners and aligns with exceptional management teams to invest in, build, and grow great companies. With a portfolio comprising more than 1 trillion in enterprise value that lives and breathes technology to generate compelling annual revenue growth, the depth, breadth, and momentum of Silver Lake's network is unmatched."
ESG: It's a bit tragic, isn't it?
JH: Live Nation, as much as it's an entertainment company, [is not much different]. It's got a majority stake in Splendour in the Grass, right? And then on LinkedIn you started seeing people's job titles changing from, you know, "I've got this role at Secret Sounds" to "my role's at Live Nation". [Then] restructures, redundancies, and you know, this is just a P&L sheet exercise for these companies.
The music industry out in Australia, as long as it's delivering the returns and the margins, [overseas owners] don't really care what is being fed or nurtured inside the scene itself. There are people that work for these companies that do, of course - and I know that every day there are a lot of people that are feeling like their efforts to amplify the culture they care about are being thwarted by the companies they work for. And so I don't blame them as individuals, but the companies themselves, absolutely, especially the foreignly-owned ones really need to consider "what's our social responsibility?" from a cultural point of view - "what are we trying to incubate?"
They do try. You see, you know, emerging talent programs... I saw one that Live Nation was doing the other day and I'm like, look, I know that you can pay lip service to these things, but the best thing you can do is to allow a scene thrive on its own terms, rather than it being done through [commercial] arbiters. Now our arbiters are social media feeds and streaming platforms and they're making the decisions about who gets up and who doesn't.
ESG: Yeah, absolutely. That's actually a perfect segue because I was, what we were saying before about TikTok and this new culture of the "fit check" sort of like form that happens on social media in general. I think with Laneway more than any other Australian festival and any other year of Laneway, I've seen a lot of fit checks saying, "what are we wearing to Laneway? what's acceptable to wear to Laneway? Rate my Laneway fit." and a lot of comments like absolutely shitting on like people's outfits. If you're a man and you're planning on wearing jorts and a button down shirt, your life is not worth living. Like truly, it's like that serious. And I've just never seen that before. I think I've seen it for Coachella and like even, you know, other American festivals, but never really in Australia. So why do you think it's happening now? And for Laneway?
JH: Trends are spreading faster than ever. Part of it is a bit of a spectator/imitation kind of thing where people watch all of this activity happening overseas and they want to emulate that because it makes them feel like they're a part of something.
This has always happened: people have always emulated, you know, different cultural signals - it used to be, you know, magazines back in the day, television was more influential, media in all its various forms has had a big play in people's self evaluation of themselves and how they perform, you know, within their culture, but social media absolutely is making it more and more and more of a monoculture than it's ever been before.
And so you're seeing these trends of fit checks and the format of these fit checks rippling their way across from other countries as if it's always been done that way, overnight. And yeah, I agree - the difference in how people follow along with that rather than us building our own sort of... there are any number of ways that you could imagine an Australian thinking about going to a festival. We have so many uniquely Australian things. Why aren't we celebrating that? Why aren't we being Aussies in the context of that kind of thing, in whatever form that happens in our multicultural environment, in all of the ways that, you know, Australia has very unique aspects of the way that its society is, is pulled together.
ESG: It's interesting as well... I've seen in these fit checks, like what you were saying, it's about imitating that... "playing a spectator" sort of thing. A lot of people are saying they're dressing to see Charli XCX or they're dressing to see Clairo. So for example, if you're dressing Charli XCX, obviously it's like the more brat style or if they're dressing to see Clairo, maybe they're wearing like, I don't know, like a flowing little dress. Like it's very much what you were speaking to before, which is that people are going not to discover, but to just like see that act already.
JH: I find there's a bit of a sports team kind of energy in festivals these days. People have got the primary team they're backing, and so they're going for that. They might have a couple of other teams that they're keeping an eye on, but stan culture is pretty ferocious these days, you know, the sort of captivation that people have with a specific thing at the expense of all other things is really huge. So yeah, Charli dwarfs them all, you know, this time around, but you know, we've seen it with things like the fred again.. tour, the amount of hysteria that was around that which, you know, bully for him! It's great that he can, you know, be a working artist that plays arena shows with a week's notice. But you know, a lot of that is stoked up through social media as well.
ESG: That's all the questions I have. Do you have anything else that you wanted to touch on or discuss?
JH: I think while all of this is happening and we're watching a lot of money get made in the music industry, we need to remember that the music industry that's hurting, you know, that we're seeing cancellations for Splendour in the Grass and the like: that's a lagging indicator of a problem that's been going for a lot longer.
You know the underground - I don't need to tell a lot of listeners of FBi this because I know they care and love the underground very deeply - but it's been hurting for so much longer. And we are now seeing that difficulty turn into real pain for underground artists as they question whether they will ever have a career or whether it will even just be viable.
I don't think a lot of musicians [expect] to quit their full time jobs. They're not feeling entitled to that, but we need to feed the underground. We need our sights to be on where the uniquely Australian voices are coming from that actually gives us a sonic identity.
I don't want to sound like every other band... when an Australian band goes and plays a showcase over in LA, I want them to have something that people are thinking, "What's going on in their neck of the woods? Who are the other bands that they play with?" I don't want a bunch of anonymous people that sound like their peers on streaming or social media. I just want a progressive evolving sonic identity that's in there.
But the good news is that the art is so freaking good in Australia still. I've been active in the scene for 20 years I've never been so excited by the music that's being created by the underground right now, and independent of its performance, and its placement in the Hottest 100, and how the industry quote unquote is doing the community continues to work hard and put out the best work, and...
Look, just get out to shows. Go see a space that you've never seen before, see a band that you've never seen before, buy their merch, tell your friends about it, write lists of your favourite Australian music, the scene needs it more than it's ever needed it and I think it's a matter of the consumer's responsibility to go, "no, I'm going to eschew some of these trends that I've become aligned with [by] just going with trending culture, and I'm actually going to go and define my own I'm circle of excitement, you know, what I'm actually connecting with and those sorts of things".
Thank you so much.